Beechcraft Bonanza A36

[Cat]

BE36 - Beechcraft Bonanza A36 (straight tail)
Default seating is 5 biz pax but I am only getting 3 even if I go to more populated regional airports instead of podunk ones.

Airline rating 120 Pilot rating 100
departure airport KIFP 6914 passengers waiting
arrival airport KFLG 7976 passengers waiting

???? I then switched to 1 first and 3 biz and only got 1 first and 2 biz. So for some reason it does not want to load all the biz class seats.

With those extra seats empty, it only makes (@ 25x multiplier) $14,000 - 17,000 per .7 / .8 hour flight which is REALLY low. I can make just as much with a C152 and 1 pax.

OHHHHHH I see why: max payload is only 849 to MZFW. Real one says max payload 950.
https://www.globalair.com/aircraft-for- ... ?specid=35

Note this real world website calls it a 3 pax airplane and not a 5 pax airplane. I pilot + 3 pax. So that explains it.... maybe the database needs to reflect 3 first class as the default seating to give us a fighting chance to make any money with it?

It will take 2 first and 1 biz .... so we'll fly that and see what it makes.

[Cat]

yeah with 2 first and 1 biz it's much better at 30K for a .9 hr flight.

[Cat]

It may have 6 seats but you can only fly them full in the real world if you have a bunch of kids on board.

[joefremont]

i think the issue here is one of weights. According to our database, the A36 has a dry weight of 2564 lbs (1163 kg) and a MZFW of 3413 lbs (1548) that leaves 849 lbs for payload (385 kg) which is only enough for three passengers. ​

This page has slightly different numbers but even with these slightly more generous numbers, still can't see how to get 5 pax in it. Wonder if the extra two seats in the bonanza were like the back seats in a Mustang where they are not really intended for full size adults.

https://www.globalair.com/aircraft-for- ... ?specid=35

Edit: Sorry Sam, I should read everting completely before responding as you already figured things out. If you find something wrong in the DB you are of course free to update it.

[joefremont]

I was about to update A36 based on the numbers from the data on globalair.com but as I was doing the math noticed something we often see in these small GA aircraft. Here is there weight data.

Operating Weights
Max T/O Weight: 3650 Lb
Max Landing Weight: 3650 Lb
Operating Weight: 2700 Lb
Fuel Capacity: 444 lbs Lb
Payload Useful: 1405 Lb
Payload W/Full Fuel: 519 Lb
Max Payload: 950 Lb

If you add the Operating weight and the max payload together you get the max T/O weight, that is not useful for us as if we define the MZFW as that then there is nothing left for fuel. I would think that as a rule, the difference between the MZFW and the MTOW should allow at least enough fuel for a 30 minute flight.

[Cat]

yup I did not want or expect any weight changes, just seat changes for the realistic load of 3 pax at 225 lbs. 6 Biz seats is like a bait and switch, one thinks they can do well with it when in fact they cannot because due to weight limits only 3 of those 6 seats are getting filled.

I guess I did not make my case clear enough, sorry about that.

I propose either 3 first class seats OR 3 biz class seats with a ticket factor bumped up to 2. That seat adjustment would then make the A36 a very viable aircraft for Air Taxi operations.

The weights are very close to real world, I wouldn't adjust those at all.

Everyone should know by now aircraft weights can vary from airplane to airplane even though they are the same make and model. Avionics packages, even the seats themselves can change a GA airplane's dry weight. I think as long as we get the payload within reason and the MTOW right, everything else "in the ballpark" should be just fine weight wise. Most simmers I imagine do not change their sim model to match weights exactly anyway.

And yes on the MZFW! I do not like MZFW numbers with fumes in the tanks either. Textron/Cessna is notorious for that with the 208 Grand Caravan EX. Yeah you can haul this much and you can fly this far but you can't do both and oh by the way if you want fuel in the tanks when you land you cannot haul max payload either (max landing weight). Aircraft sales/marketing have been doing this for years to make their performance numbers look better than they really are. Buyer beware and know the difference between "payload" and "useful load".

The Bonanza is no different waving "6 seater" ads to make you look until you realize there is no way it will get off the ground with 6 adults wedged into it. I think it was originally designed as "the family airplane". Put Mom n Dad up front and 4 kids in the back or 2 guys and their golf clubs. LOL 4 guys and golf clubs + 1 overnight bag would probably push the weight over gross and for sure would push the CG aft to a potentially dangerous point.

[joefremont]

I am a bit resistant to changing an aircrafts data just to make it profitable without some other good reason behind it. There are some aircraft that are just unprofitable. People will pay extra to fly in a business jet so changing the ticket factor makes sense, but will they pay extra to fly in a bonanza over the other GA aircraft that may not have an extra ticket factor increasing the revenue.

Looking at the globalair numbers again there is something I don't quite understand. They say "Payload Useful: 1405 Lb" well if that is both fuel and payload and the MTOW is 3650 Lb, that would imply the empty weight is 2245 lb not 2700 lb.

[Cat]

yeah those numbers are wrong add up the "payload full fuel" and fuel weight and you get their 950 not 1405.

[Cat]

Oh and by the way, this is why I state my case in public in the forum instead of just changing specs to meet any personal or VA desires which would be a total abuse of Administrator rights.

I do not expect all things to go my way every time. Even though I may make a case I think is valid, sometimes getting other viewpoints will show it is not as valid as originally thought.

[joefremont]

Here is a pic from the the beechcraft website on the last two seats in the current G36



The data they give is

Maximum Ramp Weight 3,663 lb (1,662 kg)
Maximum Takeoff Weight 3,650 lb (1,656 kg)
Maximum Landing Weight 3,650 lb (1,656 kg)
Usable Fuel Weight 444 lb (201 kg)
Usable Fuel Volume 74 gal (280 l)
Basic Empty Weight Basic Operating Weight 2,590 lb (1,175 kg)
Useful Load 1,073 lb (487 kg)
Maximum Payload 1,060 lb (481 kg)
Full Fuel Payload 629 lb (285 kg)
Maximum Cruise Speed 176 ktas (326 km/h)
Maximum Range 920 nm (1,704 km)

Based on this the difference between useful load and max payload is only 13 lb which I estimate is enough fuel to go 26 nm.

[Cat]

yah that is cutting it AWFULLY thin when we fly max loads. LOL barely enough for 1 go around .... maybe

[Cat]

OK looking at the C182 vs BE36: if you just give me equal ticket factor of 1.5 (C182) instead of 1.25 (BE36) I'll shush.

[joefremont]

Was looking at why we have different ticket factors and remembered the rules I used when I updated them last, and it appears that aircraft introduced before 1960 got a ticket factor of 1.5 and those introduced between 1960 and 1979 got a ticket factor of 1.25, while those 1980 or later were 1.0.

I see in our DB the C182 is introduced in 1956 and the A36/F33 were both introduced in 1970. While the first Bonanza was in 1947 (the V tail 35) the first '36' was 1968

I am not opposed to changing the ticket factors, just need a consistent rationale for doing so. When someone says why did you give that plane a bonus when you did not give it to my favorite plane.

If we instead say we will use the date the first instance of an aircraft type is introduced (1947 for all versions of the bonanza) do we use that same rule for ticket factors of other aircraft types, does the 737 max deserve a 1.25 ticket factor because the 737-100 flew in 1967.

[Cat]

Well that is interesting to know, I did not know there was a formula, I thought it was a "case by case basis" to keep aircraft competitive. LOL

I personally don't think large aircraft need any help at all with ticket factors, I mean how many millions per flight are enough? But smaller GA airplanes especially need some help or they won't even make enough to buy the fuel. Using the First Class seat as default to boost their income I see has been used on many 1 pax planes and I think that is the correct move.

Thanks for sharing how you decide the ticket factors, this was something I am pretty sure nobody knew about.

As the system stands now though, a VA operating the oldest aircraft can make more per seat than a VA operating the newest aircraft whereby both aircraft have the same seating arrangement. Plus the new aircraft has a sales tax tacked on while undoubtedly being far more expensive to purchase than the older ones. It makes a case to fly older airplanes and not the new ones.

[joefremont]

What I ended up doing is using the ticket factor to try to adjust for the older aircraft that are less efficient than newer aircraft, and then used the seat factors to try to adjust for smaller aircraft. Most aircraft with less than 18 passengers can replace all there seats with business class seats on a 1-1 basis while aircraft with 48 or more have pull two economy seats to put in one business. And single passenger aircraft are always first class only.

Doing it on a case by case basis is challenging when we have over 1000 aircraft in the database.